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Interview
with Danny Goldberg
1.
What was your main motivation behind writing "Dispatches from the
Culture Wars"?
For several years I'd been ranting at my friends in politics about the
cultural myopia of Democrats and leaders on the left, leaders whose
policy goals I support, by the way. The 2000 election was the final
straw for me. During that campaign I started writing "Dispatches
from the Culture Wars," which is a rant in the form of a memoir.
I gave it the sub-title "How the Left Lost Teen Spirit," because
I am particularly frustrated at the way the left has failed to connect
with young people. I also liked the play on the words "teen spirit,"
because the high point of my career in the music business was managing
Nirvana, whose most famous song is "Smells Like Teen Spirit."
I grew up in the 1960s when culture and progressive politics reinforced
each other and when the energy of young people was crucial in developing
the civil rights movement, feminism, the gay rights movement, environmentalism,
the anti-war movement etc. Leaders like Martin Luther King, the Kennedys,
Abbie Hoffman, and Gloria Steinem spoke in clear inspirational terms
and vividly connected with the cultural language of the times.
In the late 1970s I worked with musical artists such as Bruce Springsteen
and Bonnie Raitt to oppose the growth of nuclear power and over the
next few years I tried, as an executive in the music business, to help
progressive political causes.
2. How do you distinguish between the left and Democratic party or
Democrats?
When
I say I "the left" in the book I mean public interest groups
and other activists who advocate on behalf of particular issues such
as civil liberties, the environment, etc. Even though many leaders of
these groups will articulate courageous and visionary positions that
establishment Democrats eschew, the cultural disconnect between most
leaders on the left is as great or even greater than that of the Democrats,
often more academic and more insular. So I think it is important to
cite both groups and not just dump them together under the term Democrats-it
is bigger than that.
I
was stunned when Tipper Gore and other Democrats started attacking rock
lyrics in the mid-eighties and when so few political figures from either
the left or the Democratic party saw the moral vacuity of these attacks
and also the political folly of opposing youth culture.
Based on my experiences in culture and politics over the last couple
of decades, I think the left and the Democrats have become estranged
from popular culture, have failed to reach out to young people, and
communicate their message.
A lot of energy is spent "preaching to the choir". Although
academic thought is crucial for the development of ideas, the left seems
to focus on the academic arena to the exclusion of populist strategies.
With the exception of Michael Moore and a handful of others, very few
leaders on the left seem to be familiar with mass media and pop culture.
This syndrome contrasts sharply with the successful leaders of the past
such as Martin Luther King and even Emma Goldman who famously said she
wanted no part of a revolution that she couldn't dance to.
3.
What has been the result of this estrangement from today's youth culture?
The 2000 election was an awful combination of many of the worst self-inflicted
wounds of the political movements whose goals I support. Gore seemed
incapable of communicating to anyone who didn't watch PBS or read the
New York Times OP-ED pages. Lieberman brought his sanctimoniousness
and his long-time antipathy to popular culture into a national campaign.
Although there has been a lot of criticism of Ralph Nader by Democrats
and those on the left, some of which I agree with, there has been shockingly
little analysis of how the Democrats became so indistinct and unimpressive
that any third-party candidate could so easily peel off millions of
votes on the left.
The Gore-Lieberman campaign was a particular flop with young people.
Among voters aged 18-24, Bill Clinton won by a margin of twelve points
in 1992 and nineteen points in 1996. Gore and Lieberman were only able
to break even. If they had the same margin as Clinton they would have
added another one to two million votes to their popular vote margin,
which easily would have swung several more states and the presidency.
And it's not only young people who were turned off by Gore and Lieberman's
attacks on pop culture, their refusal to acknowledge the Nader supporters,
and their turgid Washington-insider language. Young people influence
the attitudes of many older-people particularly in the worlds of fashion
and entertainment-and their enthusiasm or lack thereof about politics
has a ripple effect in the culture at large.
4.
You define the Sixties as a counterculture that brought politics, art,
and youth together. Given our political situation now, do you think it
is possible to create such a counterculture today?
Sure. A counterculture is being created today. If you look at the phenomenon
of MoveOn.org having gathered two million email addresses of people
who opposed Bush's policy on Iraq, or the extraordinary success of Michael
Moore's most recent book and movie or the emergence of young politically
savvy artists such as David Rees or Aaron McGruder, you can see a reflection
of an enormous group of Americans who are deeply dissatisfied with mainstream
political media and with the public face of both major political parties.
I think that the next few years will give birth to a dramatic new version
of a progressive counterculture. The challenge for older progressives
will be to support it even if we aren't in the forefront of it. We don't
want to make the mistakes of the leftists from the nineteen thirties
who were unable to connect with the sixties protest movements.
5.
You attack "liberal snobs" for changing the soul of the Democratic
party, will you briefly explain what a "liberal snob" is and
give a few examples on how you believe they have damaged the Democratic
party?
"Liberal
snobs" can mean politicians like Joe Lieberman and Hillary Clinton
who attack and distain popular culture. Or people in Washington whose
communications focus solely on speaking to other people in Washington
at the expense of reaching out to ordinary people. I still don't know
what Al Gore was talking about when he kept mentioning the "lockbox,"
in the presidential debates.
Then there are overt liberal snobs like Harvard President Lawrence Summers
who attacked Cornel West, not only for releasing a CD on my label Artemis
Records, but for writing books that were supposedly too popular--as
if a popular touch is mutually exclusive with intellectual and moral
seriousness.
6.
As a political activist and insider in the music industry, how do you
think politicians today could benefit from listening to politically concerned
musicians and artists?
Art operates on a different wavelength than politics and I have never
thought that politicians should take instructions from musicians (nor
for that matter that musicians should be propagandists for political
views.)
However people with political goals can learn a lot from popular culture
about the emotional and moral framework in which most Americans process
information. Much of political behavior motivated by deep seated moral
and emotional value systems that often are triggered by the "poetry"
of symbols more than the "prose" of policy. Popular culture,
for all of its limitations and flaws, often communicates far more powerfully
to many people than linear political communiqués.
Thus someone in the organization of any political movement needs to
understand popular culture in order to be effective. Norman Lear, perhaps
the most brilliant TV writer-producer of the last several decades, told
me recently that in all the years he's been approached by Democrats
and progressives for financial support he never once has been asked
for his advice about communications. Failure to take advantage of the
cultural wisdom of someone like that is not only snobbish, it's self-destructive.
7.
What is the biggest concern you have for the future of the Democratic
party?
I'm worried that it will fade into irrelevance. Bill Clinton was able
to win because of his incredible personal charisma. This was a guy who
could attack Sister Souljah to create a bond with white workers uncomfortable
with black influence, and yet bond with African-American leaders by
sending cultural signals to them. But unlike Franklin Roosevelt or sixties
liberals, Clinton didn't leave behind any unique set of values or strategies
that less charismatic Democrats can use.
Former
House Speaker Tip O'Neill was the last national Democratic leader to
articulate progressive values in consistent emotionally accessible terms.
He would say that Reagan "had ice-water in his veins," or
that "he doesn't remember where he came from." Not everyone
liked O'Neill but they knew where he stood and he was able to rally
the troops against a president who was far more personally popular than
George W. Bush.
When I hear Democrats speak about important issues, they often sound
as if they are only concerned with what people in Washington think.
Republicans learned this lesson clearly. Ronald Reagan spoke in the
American vernacular and cultural touchstones in dozens of his speeches
and our current president followed his example. George W. Bush supposedly
told his advisers to make his rationale for the Iraq war "so simple
that the boys in Lubbock can understand it."
If Joe Lieberman, or someone with his culturally conservative views,
is on the Democrat ticket again, millions of potential Democrats, including
myself, will either vote for Bush, a third party candidate, or decline
to vote altogether.
8.
Do you think using pop culture as a hook is the only way to get young
Americans involved in politics?
No, of course not. Political leaders, journalists, religious leaders,
and public interest group leaders have to be the primary voices on political
issues. But if culture is not part of the way in which they reach out
to the public, they are unlikely to be successful in moving their agenda.
I've met so many political leaders who have never watched The Simpsons
or listened to a rap album, or seen an Adam Sandler movie. How can you
lead people if you don't understand their cultural language?
But the "hook" isn't only in the language, it's also in the
content. Young people, and people of all ages who keep youth alive in
their hearts, want a moral context to their politics, not just poll-tested
appeals to self-interest. I'm so sick of hearing Democrats and progressives
criticize Bush economics solely on the basis of wealthy people getting
a tax break. Why can't we ever hear about the positive reasons for collective
action that the tax money would be used for?
We
all celebrated the courage of firefighters after Sept 11th. We all want
to know that food is safe. We all want investment in health services
to deal with threats like the SARS epidemic. These are just a few examples
of things that only government, as the instrument of our collective
interest, can do.
When Tip O'Neill criticized the Reagan era tax cuts he talked about
"fairness," a higher moral standard for government. Today,
Democrats talk about the "wealthiest one per-cent," which
requires supporters either to identify themselves as people who will
never become wealthy, or as people who care only about their own self-interest
or both. Can't some of our leaders talk about our moral obligations
to each other?
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